I know I played some of the Wizardry games in the past, but for the life of me, I can't recall the details. But now that you mention the TES games, I do remember the ability to create your own spells, though the casting cost would go up if you went too crazy if iirc. I've only played Morrowind briefly and Oblivion is still stuck on my shelf lol. Sigh, just never enough time.

Enchanting and even crafting in games could be fun when they do it right, no doubt about it. Triggering heals with each strike can be a lifesaver for melee classes. Though I imaging life-stealing enchantments would be more favored by said class and even ranged classes. Though mages never or rarely benefitted from such triggers.
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Tbh, I never heard of some of these games. Are they console games? My knowledge of console games is limited to Atari 2600 lol.

I did play Monk classes in some of the DnD games, but only briefly. Probably the only Monk class I played to max level was in vanilla EQ2. With the expansions, I stuck to a Warden and Enchanter mainly. That Monk class was never a main healing class though, mostly off-tanks and had limited self-heals. But they did have the ability to play dead (I don't recall the skill name), which helped out immensely after a raid wipe.

That must have been an unusual Monk for that game to be a main healer. Most games had them as melee/martial arts types. Good to know there are interesting and creative combinations out there.
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Etrian Odyssey 1-3 were for the Nintendo DS, and there are some installments for the 3DS that I have not played.

One interesting feature is that the bottom screen is used for drawing maps.

EO3's Monk does act as a martial arts attacker, but it also acts as a healer. The catch is that, given the skill point system, it can be hard to do both well, especially if you also want to make good use of the character's subclass.

Hello RhodyDave and Cadaver747!

I must agree with Cadaver747 on this subject. My favorite RPG character generation can be found in the "Realms of Arkania 1+2" & "Realms of Arkania 3" series (also known as "Das Schwarze Auge: Die Nordlandtrilogie" in their original German versions).

Their character generation is not only one of the most indepth one, but also features the best background music to accompany it, see for example in the Soundtrack of the game's CD version:
RoA1 Blade of Destiny OST

Nonetheless, it is necessary to mention, that not all of the skills and spells are actual useful nor used in the game. However, I like the DSA roleplaying system implemented in these for the abundance of non-combat skills and items available for roleplaying purposes and the many skill and talent checks throughout the game!

The first part of the "Realms of Arkania" Trilogy ("Blade of Destiny" = "Die Schicksalsklinge" in German) belongs to my fondest CRPG memories!

Kind regards,
foxgog

I remember those. I know I owned a few hand-held units, but I don't think I owned that one. Probably the only one I can remember was a hand-held football game with little red lights for players lol.

Yes indeed, unless a class was specifically meant to be hybrid, they usually didn't get to master things well in the games that allowed it, for me at least. That's not to say they weren't fun classes, but like you said, they never did both well.

Though in some of those games, Bards didn't do too bad at doing multiple things. I have a vague memory of one game in which they even had a healing chant. Yet another game I can't recall lol, oh well.
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There are many games where Bards aren't generalists, but are rather specialists in using songs to support the rest of the party. We see this in the Bard's Tale series, Final Fantasy 5 (the first time Squaresoft got Bards right; in (original) FF3 and FF4 Bards were garbage)), and it's this style of Bard that the Troubadour in Etrian Odyssey 1 and 2 is (except that EO2 made that class garbage due to some design choices I disagree with, and is the reason I prefer EO1 despite one mandatory plot point that really needs a trigger warning in addition to likely being offensive).

At this point, I consider a healing song (typically a party-wide heal or regen effect that's weak but costs nothing to use) to be a standard ability of the Bard class. You see such abilities, in some form, in the following games, among others:
* Bard's Tale 1-3
* Final Fantasy 5
* 3D remakes of Final Fantasy 3 and 4 (yes, that spoony bard is actually useful in FF4 3D)
* Etrian Odyssey 1 (not 2, as they took away that ability, along with the one that restores TP, another reason I don't like EO2 as much)
* Dragon Quest 7 (though in PS1 this ability is a hybrid skill, that requires changing directly between Bard and Cleric without any other classes in between)
* Wizardry 8 (the healing costs stamina and isn't weak, but you don't get it for a while; Wizardry 7 has an instrument that's meant to work like this, but from what I've read it apparently doesn't)
* Icewind Dale 1 and 2 (the final song learned at level 11 grants health regen, note that IWD1 needs the expansion for this song to be available, but all digital versions have the expansion AFAIK)

The (A)D&D Bard is actually the oddball here, and does not match my conception of what the Bard class should be.

(There's one other thing with AD&D classes that doesn't match my perception of the class, and it's that Paladin is a base class rather than a prestige class. This is, of course, aside from the fact that I've been thinking in recent years that healing should be arcane rather than divine.)

Dungeons & Dragons Online has a nice character customization setup. Yes, it is possible to totally gimp your character, but there are lots of builds on the forum for those who don't want to figure things out by trial and error. :)

The most common party makeup is from other players, but hirelings can be purchased, and multi-boxing is allowed.

Wow! So the game is still alive after all those years? I played it a lot, but it was more than 10 years ago... I have very good memories from the game. I wonder how it changed during all this time.

Yes, it is still alive, and it is still getting new content. :)

I may have only played a Paladin once. I think it was in FR Secret of the Silver Blades. Though there were Paladin-ish types I probably played in other games, but those classes were much lower on my selection list.

And I couldn't get into it from a roleplaying perspective either, a little too holy for me. :)

Actually, it might have been the Krynn series now that I think about it. I may have to start keeping a journal of my playthroughs lol, I seem to forget too much about my gaming past.
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I didn't play Bards much either. The Bard's Tale from GOG maybe the only one I truly played since it was the main character after all. I do have the Bard's Tale Trilogy, so I should probably check it out at some point to see how the classes compare to other games. Hopefully it turns out to be fun, since I did pay for it lol.

Pillars of Eternity had a class similar to Bard that I did try out during a partial playthrough and that class was fun for the most part. I think the class was called a Cypher maybe?

Also, FF7 was the only one I ever played on PC and I think I enjoyed it, but the fact I don't remember it too well probably means it wasn't as memorable. I don't recall any Bard types in that game though, but given my history of poor recollections, that's not saying much. Did any of the others even make it to PC?
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By that point in the series, the traditional Final Fantasy classes/jobs had been abandoned, so you no longer see abilities like bard songs, the dragoon's jump attacks, or things like the chemist's mix ability. A few of the old abilities remain, but the only interesting remnant would be Blue Magic (the materia that grants it is called Enemy Skill).

Bard onlt appeared in Final Fantasy 3-5, although it does make an appearance in Final Fantasy Tactics, I believe Final Fantasy X-2 (under a different name), and of course FF4's bard appears in The After Years.

The versions where bards are considered decent are:
* Final Fantasy 3's remakes (but not the original Famicom version)
* 3D versions of Final Fantasy 4
* All versions of Final Fantasy 5
* Anything released after FF5 probably has Bards being at least decent, with the exception of 2D versions of FF4.

Final Fantasy 8 did, but note that this particular game is not a good intro to the series, as its mechanics are rather unusual. Also, enemies scale to your level, which is a common complaint that has also been leveied against The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. (By the way, the TES Bard follows the D&D approach of being a Jack-of-all-trades; the Arena bard is notable for having the weakest magic ability of any class that can use magic in that game.)

Some FF games have appeared in recent years on PC, but only on DRM-encumbered storefronts.

There's also the option of emulating older games, which can even allow you to play games like the original version of FF3, which never saw US release, and has different balance properties.

My first major exposure to the Paladin class was in Final Fantasy 4, and one notable trait of that class is that the character who gets this class does not start in the class; rather, it has to be earned, and that event is a major plot point (as well as a point where that character's abilities and equipment options change).

Edit: Well, there's also a game called Paladin's Quest, but that game does not actually have a paladin; the main character is a mage who only uses swords because it seems like that's obligatory for a JRPG main character.

Thanks for the enjoyable conversations, probably the longest I've had in a while on any particular topic. I also gained a lot more knowledge about certain aspects of RPGs. Of course, I also came to the shocking realization of how little I knew or retained during my own history of gaming in one of my favorite genres lol.

I think it's time for me to take a step back and dive deeper into the games I play and why I play them. If I truly want to be more involved in gaming and enjoy them to their fullest, I have a lot of catching up to do. :)
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Pillars of Eternity (particularly Deadfire) has the most extensive, yet intuitive character creation I've ever seen in an RPG. It's massive but doesn't feel like it's massive to the point of being irritating to work with. Plus, the classes are varied enough that it creates an even broader canvas to work with.

Here is what some Japanese DRPGs have done with character creation:
* Wizardry Gaiden 4: Like classic Wizardry (though, like in 6 and 7 you choose your class before allocating points, and there's also a gender selection). However, at the end you have the option to have the character spend 3 years training; doing so gives the new character 3 immediate level ups, at the cost of the character aging 3 yearsl note that this option is only available if your bonus point total is 10 or less.
* Etrian Odyssey series: Choose a class, portrait, and name the character; that's it. Characters start with 3 unspent skill points, and subclasses (if available; EO3 introduced this mechanic) are chosen later.
* The Dark Spire: roll for random stats, and choose a starting class. (Note that stats can be increased later by spending XP; the whole "spending XP" is also how multiclassing works, though note that class abilities may become unavailable depending on equipment.)
* Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls: Like classic Wizardry, but you can use Growth Fruit tor extra bonus points at character creation. (Note that, unless you're playing a DRM-free version, these Growth Fruits are obtained by spending real money; DRM-free versions simply give you 5 of them.)
* Elminage Gothic: Like Classic Wizardry, but you additionally get to choose an EX Skill for each character, which remains until you change to another class (and can then choose a new one).
* Stranger of Sword City: You choose an age for your character; older characters get more bonus points to distribute (on average, and higher minimum), but have fewer Life Points (putting elderly characters at the risk of permanent death). You then roll bonus points and distribute them Wizardry-style, choosing a race and class (though I believe classes don't have ability score requirements). You can also choose a special talent that sticks with the character (though the selection is much smaller than EG's EX Skill list). In Revisited, you can also choose a feature, which gives the character an extra low level skill permanently. (Example: You could give your wizard the ability to cast low level cleric spells without a class change this way.)